Thanks you for your second response. I do not think that you are correct in stating that I ignored your point. As for your comments in relation to how Wales would raise money - you are wrong. There is NO possibility of raising funds long term without a solvent and wide tax base. My whole argument is related to the fact that with 85% of the Welsh population next to England such a tax base could not be exploited to an extent that would make good the loss of the Union Dividend.

Guto

The point that I was making is that it is incumbent on those, from any party, who wish to "change the system" to get the best deal from the current system whilst campaigning and awaiting for the system to change.

You and I have agreed in the past that there are too many County Councils in Wales. I trust that you would also agree that it is incumbent on all County Councillors from Conwy, whatever their political persuasion, to do the best for the people of Conwy until the number of councils is reduced! There is nothing contrary in wanting the council abolished and wanting it to do well unless and until it is abolished.

In the same way I don't see anything contrary or hypocritical in Nationalists (not that I am convinced that Plaid is a nationalist party any more) wanting to break away from the union with England and also wanting to screw as much as it can out of the union with England until that day comes.

The logic of my argument is rather obvious. Plaid are welcome to claim on an on-going basis that the Barnett Formula is unfair to Wales (although the Holtham report has given their claims a rather more realistic figure) but when they make this argument they should, as proud advocates of a breaking the link with the UK, explain how the financial shortfall would be bridged.

Dafydd Wigley was unwilling to debate the issue with me - I wonder why?

Your attempt to state that EU sceptics within the Conservative Party are in the same position is slightly silly since there is little or no doubt that the UK is a nett contributor to the EU. Thus advocating withdrawal from the EU (which I do not do by the way)does not lead to a funding gap when you discuss the public finances of the UK.

When Plaid discuss their call for a Wales free from the UK they should, if they are a serious party, tell us where the money would come from if not from the English taxpayer. The fact that they fail to do this reveals the dishonesty of their position.

Guto

I accept that if Wales was independent it would receive no funding from Westminster, but whilst Wales waits for independence shouldn't nationalists also try to ensure that Wales gets as much as it can from the so called "Union Dividend"?

There is a large Euro-sceptic block amongst Conservative MEPs, they may want to change the EU or pull out of Europe, but I trust that at the same time they are trying to make sure that the UK gets the best deal from Europe until the time of withdrawal or reform happens!

What's the difference?